Grief and a Guide Forward  

November 4, 2025  | Episode 50

Producer’s Note: The following is an AI-generated transcript of The Wellness Conversation, an OhioHealth Podcast

SPEAKERS: Lindsey Gordon, Marcus Thorpe, Jean O'Leary Pyles

Marcus Thorpe  0:14  
Welcome to the wellness conversation, an OhioHealth podcast. We always invite you to like and subscribe to this podcast so that more can follow along with you. I'm one of your hosts, Marcus Thorpe,

Lindsey Gordon  0:24  
And I'm Lindsey Gordon. The holidays can be joyful, but for those grieving a loss, they can also be incredibly difficult. Today we're joined by Jean O'Leary Pyles, a community grief counselor at OhioHealth, to talk about navigating loss during the holiday season. Jean, welcome. Thank you. It's good to be here, and we are also joined by Bernadette Wise. Bernadette is a local mom who has an incredibly powerful story to share about her own journey with grief. Thank you both for being here and Bernadette, thank you for opening up and sharing your story. 

Bernadette Wise  0:52  
Thanks for having me.

Marcus Thorpe  0:53  
I want to start with the basics Gene with you. This is a really important topic. I think we did one of these last year, and honestly, it was so well received, we knew we wanted to talk about it again, because grief is so individual, and it impacts you in different parts of your day, different parts of your week, and certainly different parts of your year. But we are kind of in the holiday season here, so let's just define loss in general. What does loss mean? Does it always mean with a death, or can loss mean just how you're feeling about something in your life.

Jean O'Leary Pyles  1:24  
So loss, by definition, is the absence of someone or something that you value. And I think when we tend to think of loss and grief, we connect that with having lost a person, maybe a pet. But it's much broader than that, and there are other kinds of losses, like the loss of a relationship, the loss of a job, even if you choose to leave that job for something different in retirement, it's still a loss children going off to school, moving from your childhood home into your first apartment. Those are all losses, and we call those non death losses, living losses. There are also secondary losses, which kind of come from a primary loss. So if I were to lose my spouse, I might have to move from my home because I can't afford it, or I can't keep it up, or it's too painful to stay there. So that's a second loss that results from that first loss.

Lindsey Gordon  2:21  
There's so many layers to that, and especially when we talk about loss with grief. How would you define grief?

Jean O'Leary Pyles  2:28  
Oh, grief is the whole body experience of having lost something. So it affects how we think, it affects how we feel, it affects how we behave, it affects our body. So just that whole body experience, and most of it is not is is painful, and things that we're less familiar with, that that we learn to carry and navigate through, but it takes time.

Marcus Thorpe  2:57  
I know how closely you work with individuals and families through some of their loss and some of their grief. How do you how do you look at Stages of Grief? Because, like I mentioned, you know, there's that immediate feeling when you lose something or someone or that, but then there are moments where things pop up and it reminds you of something, and you immediately go back in that space. Can you explain where Stages of Grief really come into play.

Jean O'Leary Pyles  3:22  
So when we talk about stages, I do want to say that grief is non linear. There's not a handbook, there's not a do this, this and this, and you'll be okay. So people step in and out of these stages or tasks. I think many people are familiar with Elizabeth Kubler Ross and her stages of grief, and those were really developed around or given a framework for people who were experiencing the end of their life. They've generally been applied to people in grief. But you know that first stage, as she describes it, is denial or shock, and another way to say it, is really insulation from the assault of what just happened, like not even being able to be with it in any way. The second stage is anger, as she describes it. And another way to look at it is like protest, like fighting against something that doesn't feel right or fair. The third stage that she describes as bargaining. And in grief, we think of that as trying to rewrite the story, trying to look for any opportunity that it could have looked different. What could I have done or not done? What should I have said? Why didn't I say? The third stage is depression, as she describes it. And in grief, we it has been likened to lowering into this deep, dark well, and if you think about that, how scary that feels, but it's the only through way to get to this place of acceptance. And acceptance doesn't mean that you're good, it's behind you. Because grief always stays with you, but it means you've learned how to carry it and maybe develop some new normal routines. Worden, I'm sorry. William Warden is a psychologist, and he talked about tasks of grief, and for him, it was less about the emotions that people experience and more about these things that are helpful to sort of accomplish as you're on your grief journey. So the first one is accepting the reality of the loss. The second is experiencing the pain, probably one of the hardest, because we tend to push it down. We put masks on at work or with our family or friends. I'm good, but really allowing yourself to experience all of the feels. The third is living in a world of what was and a world of what is so what was is part of your story and informs who you are now. But we miss what was because we miss our person. But what is, is what we're doing now and what we're feeling hopeful about, and kind of toggling back and forth, and then that fourth stage is really kind of this full integration of I'm okay, grief is still with me. It's not front and center, it's in my peripheral vision, and sometimes it moves front and center, but I have new grounding so that I think both of those are ways to describe grief.

Lindsey Gordon  6:31  
I saw Bernadette your head was nodding as as she was describing all those stages of grief. And you know, grief on many levels. Unfortunately, you have experienced it more than once, and so full disclosure, we met kind of recently. We were at Marion General Hospital for a cuddle cot dedication ceremony thanks to your foundation. And for those who don't know, a cuddle cot is a device. It's like a bassinet that allows parents who have just suffered a loss of a newborn or stillborn gives them more time to spend with the baby before they have to say goodbye and so. Bernadette, I whatever you're willing to share with your journey. I know you're pretty much an open book, but you experience grief on many different levels, more than I feel like most people do in such a short amount of time, relatively speaking, so wherever you kind of want to start, feel free to sort of share your story and where it began with grief.

Bernadette Wise  7:29  
Yeah, my husband and I have been married for 15 years, so you know, we knew we wanted to have kids, that journey for us looked a lot different than what I had ever envisioned. It to look I had had a couple miscarriages. We, you know, needed to seek the help of a fertility specialist. So we did that. Luckily, got pregnant with Natalia, and it was at our anatomy scan that we found out she had some pretty severe complications. You know, we chose as a couple, to continue on with the pregnancy and to meet her, however long or short, our time was going to be with her. And so May of 2017 my water broke early. I was only 36 weeks, actually, 34 weeks. I'm sorry. I was 36 with my other daughter, 34 weeks. And you know, I stayed in the hospital for a few days and ended up having to have an emergency C section with her. And you know, our time with her was brief, but like you were saying, having the cuddle cot situation, it allowed us time. And you know, when you're dealing with something like that, time is really all you have. So it wasn't long, but we were able to have her baptized. We gave her her first bath. We, you know, all of our family got to meet her. So that will always be something that I'm grateful for in the time since, you know, it's my grief journey, I'm sure is very different than somebody else's grief journey is going to be. I tried to put my focus into how can I make this situation better for someone else? Because, you know there were we chose cremation. We wanted her to come home with us. So when we received her ashes, it was a way that I didn't think a family should bring their baby home. So that was the avenue that we chose. So as a foundation, we provide urns to families who go through the same experience as us, and I think it's so important for people to understand that just because that was something that I put myself into, it doesn't mean that everybody who suffers a loss has to go do something big and grand. You know, it's okay to just be and take the loss and. And figure out how your life is going to move forward after that. And I think that for us, it has been very healing for us, because we are getting the feedback that we're helping people get through a very difficult situation. You know, everybody kind of knows big losses, your parents, things like that, but to lose a child is is something that is not really in the cards.

Lindsey Gordon  10:30  
And then you went on to try to expand your family and grow your family, and only more heartache in that journey as well. You do have two healthy, beautiful children, but I can't imagine the fear you must have had during those pregnancies. Every day. You must have been thinking the worst, right?

Bernadette Wise  10:48  
Yeah, yeah. It was, you know, right after Natalia, I was having a conversation with my my OB, GYN, and you know, it was, do you want to do more fertility treatments? And I knew that I didn't, because it was hard on me as a person, it was hard on our relationship, so I didn't want to do that again. And I was like, No, we're just gonna see what happens. And if it's in the cards, great, if it's not, then we'll talk about other alternatives. And so, you know, I was supposed to have some blood work done, and lo and behold, I found out I was pregnant with Mia, and it was very much a surprise, but that pregnancy for me was extremely difficult. I mean, I remember sitting the day that I found out, and I was, like, having a meltdown, because I was like, Oh my gosh, I can't do this again. Like, I don't know. How do I know it's not going to end up the same way? I've had miscarriages, I've lost a baby, like, I can't do this. And my OB, GYN was great, and saw me more often, and I saw, you know, high risk doctors, so we kind of alternated appointments. And it it was like living appointment to appointment. For me. I mean, one week was a month, is what it felt like just because of how long the pregnancy took. And even after she was born, you know, it's still still, to this day, I mean, she's seven, and it's still like, oh my gosh, I don't want her to do something because that's dangerous. And, you know, I feel like that helicopter mom, but at the same time, it's for my own reason.

Lindsey Gordon  12:19  
It's like the dad and Finding Nemo, right? Not to make like, a silly comparison, but seriously, that was, like his whole thing was with Nemo, he's dangerous. Don't do that. What's gonna happen? Yeah, yeah. I want to know too. Like when Mia was born and you were able to hold a healthy baby, what was that moment like for you?

Bernadette Wise  12:39  
It was, Well, again, she was a C section baby too, because it was only, she was only born a year and a month after we lost Natalia. So it was, I didn't breathe until I heard her cry. And, you know, I just remember them in that moment. You know, of course, the C section is kind of a weird experience, anyways, but I just, I was holding my breath the whole time, and then when I finally heard her cry, I just, I completely lost it, to be quite honest. I mean, it was just such a relief to hear her crying, and then, you know, the moment that I got to hold her was, you know, I just remember closing my eyes, and I was like, Oh my gosh, finally,

Marcus Thorpe  13:26  
yeah, this is real. Jean I want to bring you back into the conversation, because I think Bernadette's grief journey is very unique to her, and it's the direction that she and her husband wanted to take for them at that moment right of throwing themselves into trying to help others to cope with some of their grief. Can you talk about how each person has to find their own individual way? Because this is not a cookie cutter space. This is not one where this this is going to work for 60% of the of the group. That you really have to kind of personalize it for people, don't you?

Jean O'Leary Pyles  14:02  
Absolutely, you know it is such a unique journey based on the relationship of the person you lost, based on the story that you had with that person, right? The story that you had with your daughter prior to her death, based on one's coping mechanisms, based on one's support system. And so I think one of the one of the things that that we are always attentive to is helping people initially be able to tell their story, whatever it may be, and then with that story, you're able to sort of identify where, where the hard parts are. It's all hard, right? But to give some education, to give some validation, to normalize what people are experiencing, thinking, feeling, and help them identify the strengths or the positives and. Not to not to minimize grief, but to sort of balance it out with what is good in front of you, who can you rely on for support?

Lindsey Gordon  15:09  
And you found Bernadette that you would need that support. Beyond these examples of grief in your life, you would go on to experience another form of grief not long after your babies were born, and you want to talk about that next chapter.

Bernadette Wise  15:27  
Yeah, last September, I lost my mom, and it was, you know, we were kind of talking earlier. It's, it's one of those losing Natalia. I have always grieved of what could she have been, you know, what? What would she have looked like, what would she have sounded like? What were the things that she would be into? You know, would she be sports? Would she be into other things? And, you know, losing my mom is kind of grieving this whole past life. And, you know, it's, it's still a struggle every day, because it's, I had my life before, and then now is my life after, and they're very different.

Marcus Thorpe  16:16  
Holidays must have been really tough. September, then you roll right into Thanksgiving and Christmas and other things. And a lot of times, if you had a healthy upbringing, and those kind of things for you and your mom and your family, those were tied into a lot of those memories. How did you work through that? How did you try to make people understand, hey, I'm not going to be okay, and that's okay too.

Bernadette Wise  16:44  
Yeah. I mean, fortunately for for me, I I'm Italian. I have a big Italian family. We have, you know, a lot of traditions that that we tried to somewhat keep. But, you know, I think the most important thing for for my brothers and I was just to understand that, like, it's okay to not be okay for a little while or a long while. Really, it's it's not. There's no book on what's the right way to grieve someone. And you know, for us, it was just staying close with our family. And you know, we did do things, but I remember waking up that morning, the first morning after on Thanksgiving, and I was just like, gosh, I just don't want to do this today. It's just not, you know, we were just missing such a big piece. And then I kind of got myself together, and I was like, she would be so mad at me if she knew that, you know, I wasn't gonna celebrate a holiday. And you know, it's it was important to, you know, keep some normalcy for my kids too, because it wasn't just me who lost a big boss, it was my kids and my husband. And, you know, my mom was integrated in everyday life for all of us. So as as big as the loss is and will always be, it's also important to to remember her and to not let the kids forget, because they're so little, and I'm sure that someday, you know, they won't remember all the details. It's just going to be the memories that we bring forward.

Marcus Thorpe  18:24  
Jean, I've heard you speak about kind of having a game plan going into some of these traditional holiday type things, right? There are checklists that you can make. There are exit strategies that you can put in for yourself. If you do have to excuse yourself because things are getting too overwhelming, walk folks through kind of that grief checklist of things that you can do, especially around the holidays, so that you can enjoy when you're ready to enjoy, and then excuse yourself when you're ready to be done with it for that day.

Jean O'Leary Pyles  18:55  
I think the first is to give yourself permission to be and feel whatever it is you're you are at that time. You know, so many of us, because of those traditions and rituals, feel like we we have to do it all again, and if we're not, if we don't have the energy, emotionally, physically or mentally, to step into them, it's okay to not write the cards. It's okay to say no to gatherings. The reality is, the holidays are all around us. They're in our stores, in our offices, and on TV and social media in the schools, and it can be really overwhelming when you're not wanting to be a part of that. So it's okay to not write the cards. It's okay to say no to invitations. It's okay to reach out to the hosts of places where you may be visiting and say, I'm going to leave early. I'm going to drive separately. I think checking in with the rest of the family, I love Bernadette that you have this huge. System and you were able to come together as as a family, collectively but also individually, honor each other, because everybody's going to come to it differently, even though you have this shared experience. So even being able to say to your spouse, your sibling, your parents, your your friends, I'm not feeling it. You are. I'm not, and I can't. So being able to say, No.

Lindsey Gordon  20:26  
Bernadette, I'm curious for you too, like sitting with Jean, I know we were talking before we started recording. And is there anything as someone who's had to navigate life with grief more than once? Are there any questions that you have for Jean that maybe might benefit somebody else listening, who knows your pain.

Bernadette Wise  20:43  
I mean, I think, you know, I, I had sat with someone after we lost Natalia, and it was, you know, how do I get through this? Like, what are, what are day to day, things that I can do? And a big part for me was to journal, because there was a lot of things that I could write that I couldn't say out loud. I couldn't say them out loud to myself, let alone someone else, who you know, am I going to be judged? Am I, you know, but I that's what worked for me at the time. But I guess just if there are other coping strategies, you know, if it's journaling was, was what helped me, or, you know, especially for my mom, I will call someone who is like a mother figure, or someone that I'm just comfortable saying whatever I can say to them. And you know, it's usually an aunt or a cousin or something like that, but you know, then they just start telling me stories like, how great my mom was, or, you know, how they're impressed with, like, how I've been coping with it, which is typically not what I'm kind of looking for. But it's just, I think for me, it's just, is this okay? Am I? Am I okay to feel this way? But I'm just kind of curious if there's other

Jean O'Leary Pyles  21:59  
Yeah. So I love that the journaling and getting what's up here onto paper, in and of itself, can be so therapeutic. And reaching out to your support system, and being able those people who allow you or give you permission, to be able to feel and experience exactly who you are, not having to put the mask on. Some people find it helpful to listen to podcasts. There are some great podcasts out there. Some are specific to different kinds of losses, and some are more general. A lot of people like Anderson Cooper's podcast, where he interviews people that you may know, and they talk about their lost experiences. I think it's kind of cool to make a grief playlist of songs that energize you. There may be songs that bring emotion to you, but sometimes when we can't find a way to release that emotion, having a song that sparks us and and sort of nudges us to have a good cry. Can be really, really good. I think support groups can be helpful for some people in that shared space of common kinds of loss reading. But I think the most significant thing is recognizing that that it really will be a lifelong journey, and not in terms of anticipating that this is going to be hard forever, but you will carry your mother and your daughter and the other babies that you lost with you. They become part of your strength and your story, and they shape who you are with people around you, primarily your husband and your children, your family as well. But I think everybody's going to find their their own thing. So music, journaling, reading, having fun, giving yourself permission to have fun, and and having a space, a place, a person that you can talk openly with.

Bernadette Wise  24:04  
yeah, and I thought it was kind of cool because we were talking before too, just to be open to signs from people too, that, you know, I don't necessarily know if I was aware or allowed myself to see signs From Natalia right after but, man, have I seen them from my mom for sure, like, just and I think it's because I'm allowing myself, and I want that, like I need that from her to know that she's still with me and that, you know, hard days, I'll get through it, for sure. So

Lindsey Gordon  24:38  
I'm wearing a butterfly necklace today. I wear this every day, but I know part of your sign is butterflies, right? 

Bernadette Wise  24:45  
Yeah, white butterflies in particular, but yes.

Lindsey Gordon  24:48  
 I was like, Oh, I have my butterfly necklace on today. Was meant to be, yeah, and

Bernadette Wise  24:52  
the very first sign that you know, coincidence or not, not sure, but we. Planted a willow tree in my yard for my mom, and we named it Annie. And I was standing out there, you know, just having a conversation with my mom and just asking if she liked it, and, you know, things like that. And there was these two white butterflies that started flying around me and, like, around my head, almost to the point where I was like, wow. And so I grabbed my phone to take a picture, and then they were just gone. I couldn't see them anywhere. And ever since then, butterflies, and white butterflies in particular, always come up at very convenient times. Yeah.

Jean O'Leary Pyles  25:38  
There's a great poem by John Rodel, and I won't be able to give it justice, but he talks about absorbing the light, just absorbing the light, so that when you're in your darkest despair, your tears will will glow so the fireflies will be able to come and rescue you. And so it's this beautiful idea of looking for those signs, looking for the light, and embracing that and letting it fill and nourish you so that on those hard in those hard moments days, you have that to rely on.

Bernadette Wise  26:15  
I had a close friend that actually at the celebration for my mom had suggested that I read this book, and it was called The Light Between us, and it was very informative, but it the one thing I kind of took from it is, if you want signs, number one, you have to be open to seeing them, but then you also have to be specific and ask for specific things. And I have found, you know, if there's something that I need to see or that I need to hear, I ask specifically for it, and it is something crazy I'm telling you to and then when it comes, you know, sometimes I'll be like, Wait, did that just No, that can't be because I asked for it. Surely it's just a coincidence. But then, you know, I just kind of sit and I allow myself to be like, No, it's because, why not? That's yeah, because that's what I asked for.

Jean O'Leary Pyles  27:14  
And Bernadette, didn't you share that you and your mom had a conversation about that?

Bernadette Wise  27:19  
Yeah, we we found out that my mom had cancer, and it everything progressed very quickly, and we lost her two weeks later. But we were fortunate enough to have these very real and open conversations, and, you know, tell her all the things that we wanted to tell her both my brothers and I, together and separately, got to have really great conversations with her, and that was one thing that she wanted to make sure that we knew, is that she wasn't leaving, that she would always be with us. And some crazy dreams that I have had where she That's all she says to me, is that she's with me, and she's never far away. And, you know, as hard as it is, it's also like, the comfort for me, like, okay, I get it. It's gonna suck for a really long time, and I have to just be okay with the suck for a while. But it's, you don't have to put on a facade. No, no. And I'm, you know, I'm grateful that I had that relationship with my mom, because, you know, I not, I know not everybody does, but I'm grateful to have that large loss because it meant that I loved so much. And, you know, I had someone tell me right after Natalia that life moving forward would be like the ocean, and it's something like in our packages that we give to families. It's something that I include in a letter to that to the moms that you know life from now on will be like the ocean, and some days will be clear and you can see for miles, and you'll feel at peace. But then other days, you'll have to brace for a storm because the waves will crash. You don't know how you're going to stand you don't know how you're going to get through the day, but you'll get through it. And then the next day, hopefully, is one of those peaceful days.

Jean O'Leary Pyles  29:15  
Bernadette, that's in my notes that Evan flow

Bernadette Wise  29:21  
Yeah it's a it's not like you were saying. It's not grief isn't the same for everyone, and it's very much a fluid day to day thing. Is what I have experienced, at least.

Marcus Thorpe  29:32  
I think one of the beautiful things for us as hosts is when two people who didn't know each other when they walked in the door, you two didn't know each other. You walk in and we just get to sit back and watch you almost work through grief in real time for us, and it's a beautiful thing for us to watch you two. You know you're at different stages of your grief than you were a year ago or seven years ago, but it doesn't mean really do. Doesn't mean that your grief is gone, because it's there and it's part of you and it's a piece of you, but then to watch gene work and listen and add things to your grief that I think anybody can take with them when they're listening to this podcast, is why we're doing this, and it's a it's a true, individualized journey for people, and we're so appreciative that you all have been so open and willing to talk through this and give people a first hand account, that talking about it when you're ready is a good thing, and it can help you and I thank you for being brave too. It's been really nice for us to sit and listen 

Lindsey Gordon  30:35  
Absolutely, thank you both so much. 

Bernadette Wise  30:38  
Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you.

Marcus Thorpe  30:41  
And before we wrap up, we do have a note for our listeners. If you're looking for health and wellness topics that you want us to cover on the podcast, we of course, would love to hear from you so you can drop us a comment. Also, we encourage you to like and subscribe, share this podcast with someone that you think might want to hear about it. Grief is a universal thing. It's not just, oh, some people have to go through this. Grief is something we all go through, and it doesn't have to be through death. It can be through loss of something else, as Jean so eloquently put at the beginning of this podcast. So make sure you're liking sharing and subscribing and getting out the word to more listeners.

Lindsey Gordon  31:14  
And this episode will also be available on our podcast page. If there's any information you'd like to go back and read. You can find that at OhioHealth.com/TheWellnessConversation. As always thanks for joining us.